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Talk:Episode 701
Long Summary There's not too much to say. Confront the summaries and choose the better one. I removed things like "Law is mumbling", multiple "while an unnamed man shots against Doffy's men, Gladius/Pink say that...", "Law is hungry", etc. Defending the idea that those parts are importants seems very strange to me. However, do as you want. Check each sentence. --Meganoide (talk) 19:16, July 13, 2015 (UTC) It's not like those things didn't happen, y'know. A long summary is meant to be a complete description. Cutting unnecessary stuff is good, but you did cut a fair bit of stuff that wasn't so unnecessary. 19:21, July 13, 2015 (UTC) The whole thing about Corazon throwing Law into the dump is especially important since it shows his character and what he was trying to do. SeaTerror (talk) 19:23, July 13, 2015 (UTC) I agree that the summary was too long, which was why I tried trimming it to exclude details that are actually unimportant. Not every detail should be in the summary. However, it's meant to provide as much description as possible without being a blow-by-blow. I do not understand why you are so uptight with making changes to summaries and forcing those changes to stay regardless of what other people think. 19:45, July 13, 2015 (UTC) Because at that moment you were the only one saying that they're important. And you didn't trim things like "Law's stomach was growling", "Gladius feels bad while eating" and "Buffalo tells Law to stay far from him". How can you consider those thing important? Let's wait for others' opinions. --Meganoide (talk) 19:56, July 13, 2015 (UTC) Kaido's version is superior. "Too long" isn't a reason to remove entire scenes from the summary. 20:25, July 13, 2015 (UTC) Honestly, I don't really give a fuck about this page. What I do give a fuck about is how these talk page discussions won't stop. My entire post will be about how you can all stop behaving like animals and get along to lessen and ease these conflicts in the future. All I see when I look at these near-constant summary edit wars are people cutting stuff out, then others adding it back in. Very little compromise is happening here, and nobody seems to care, and the articles (and the community's patience) all suffer. You all cannot seem to understand that you must give, as well as take. No one person's edit or opinion is totally correct here. You need to accept some of the changes others make, and POLITELY try to edit theirs. Talk about content, DEEPLY. Follow these steps: * Talk about every sentence if you have to. Talking about specific content keeps you on-track and will help avoid generalizations of "your edit is bad" * Say WHY you think the trims/additions you made are necessary. Once again, avoid generalizations such as "this is needed" or "this isn't necessary". Say WHY things are necessary. ST actually did this in the discussion, so props to him for being just about the only real contributor here. * Help each other understand the kinds of thing that need to be avoided in the future so that each of these edit wars can be about smaller amounts of content. We are a community, so edit like one. Learn from each other and get along. There's no easy way to "just make a rule" here to stop these edit wars. You all just need to learn to work together and make them go away. 20:26, July 13, 2015 (UTC) Seems fair to me. 20:30, July 13, 2015 (UTC) I was not the only one who did; both Xil and Vid changed your revisions for legitimate reasons before you changed them back because they were "too long". And I did trim the Gladius feeling sick part. And where on Earth did it say his stomach was growling. The Buffalo part stayed because it showed his character as well as the Donquixote Pirates' reaction to Law's poisoning. Meanwhile, some important parts you removed: *Everything that sets the scene *The invitation for Law to see Doflamingo *Corazon's brutality *The crew's initial view of Law *Glossing over the Blood Law *The pirates' reaction to Amber Lead and Flevance and Law's response to that *Not saying who is attacking Rakesh, and completely removing the firefight, which was an important scene *Completely removing the scenes with Law and his family other than him seeing them dead *The citizens of Flevance, Law's father especially, reacting to the attack. 20:31, July 13, 2015 (UTC) * I say that the crew is dining. * Not needed. Law and doffy just talk. * Not needed, cause it doesn't have consequences. * Not needed, cause it doesn't have consequences. * You're right about the Blood Law * Not needed, cause it doesn't have consequences. * Not needed to know exactly who does the attack and who does not cause it doesn't have consequences. The attack of Rakesh is explained simply in the phrase "during the raid on rakesh, baby 5 is told the history of flevance". * ok, let's talk about the death of law's parents... but trimmed. * Not needed, cause it doesn't have consequences. While sometimes things that doesn't have consequences may be added to fill the summary, when it is too long they must be removed. And here are some other parts that I deleted, and I'd like to know why they're important. * "Law sits alone in a trash dump and is told it is time to eat by Buffalo as his stomach growls". * "Seeing Corazon walking along, Law stomps on one of his cigarette butts". * "When Law walks in, Giolla is hostile towards him, only for Doflamingo to accept him because he called him, shocking his crew members. Laughing, Trebol asks Law if he wants to leave after a week of being beaten by Corazon as Diamante notes that they only have the best here because both kids and adults run away from them, prompting Law to proclaim that he is not going anywhere". * "Buffalo reveals that he once nearly died from torture after laughing at Pica's voice". * "prompting Buffalo to believe it is contagious while telling Law to leave". * "While Buffalo tells Law to stay away from him nonetheless". * "causing Gladius to choke on his food". * "Baby 5 berates Law for saying this, but Law merely glares at her, making her cry". * "Gladius blows down the door to a pirate hideout before walking in with Giolla, Lao G, Baby 5, Senor Pink, and Machvise. The two groups enter a firefight as the Donquixote Pirates use their various Devil Fruit powers to overwhelm their enemies. With all the enemy pirates defeated, the Donquixote Pirates begin collecting the money present". I rephrased in "after the raid... * "In the past, Law studied with his father, only to be interrupted by his sister Lami asking him to come to the festival with her. When Law refused, his mother told him that too much studying is not good for him, only to be surprised when Lami asked her to come as well. Law's father supported her request, and after his mother stated they would only do so for 30 minutes, Law agreed to go". oh come on how can it be important? * The Donquixote Pirates walk away from the hideout while being fired upon as Lao G explains that the World Government performed a geological survey 100 years ago that revealed the truth. Amber Lead was poisonous and would erode the body if dug up and handled. Lao G notes that the World Government and the royalty of Flevance kept this a secret because of the fortune that Amber Lead would bring them, so the citizens kept digging it up. As Gladius fires at the pirates attacking them Baby 5 notes that the citizens would die, prompting Gladius to explain that the traces and effects of Amber Lead would build up in each generation, consequentially shortening their lifespan by about twenty more years each, which meant that a generation doomed to die before adulthood was eventually born. Senor Pink joins the other crew members as Gladius notes the world discovered the poisonous effects of Amber Lead too late. * In the past, Lami and Law's mother rushed toward the parade taking place as Lami told Law to hurry up. However, as Lami ran, she suddenly stopped and clutched her chest as Law noticed a white patch of skin on her arm. Can't we just say that Lami falls ill? etc etc. --Meganoide (talk) 20:46, July 13, 2015 (UTC) My thoughts on the above points. * The opening scene with Buffalo's invitation and the crew's reaction to Law walking in on them: Leave it in. Their hostility toward him indicates he is not yet one of them, and it also leads into explaining the Blood Law. * The example of Corazon throwing Law into the dump: Leave it in. It reinforces Corazon's reputation for hating kids, as well as demonstrating how he's trying to drive Law away by being brutal with him, even if we don't know those are his motives at this time. * The Family's reaction to Amber Lead Syndrome, especially Buffalo's: Leave it in. It introduces and foreshadows the widespread misconception that the disease is contagious, which becomes important later in the episode during the Flevance flashbacks and also in future episodes when Corazon takes Law to try finding a cure. * The Blood Law, Buffalo describing how he nearly died from torture, and Baby 5's warning: Leave it in, it becomes relevant at the end of the episode and also demonstrates how big a deal it was for Law to stab Corazon; merely laughing at Pica's voice caused Buffalo to be tortured, so actually physically assaulting an Executive Officer is a far worse transgression. * The raid on Rakesh: It has already been sufficiently trimmed by Kaido; whatever remains can be left in. * Anything related to Law's past in Flevance should definitely be left in. It shows him in a time during his childhood when he was a normal happy kid, then shows how that life completely falls apart and leaves him omnicidal and desiring nothing but destruction. This is a huge change in personality and a big part of who he is and what he becomes. On top of this, Law's father's call to the other doctor is important due to, again, reinforcing the misconception that Amber Lead Syndrome is contagious and proving that the World Government is responsible for not informing Flevance's neighboring countries of its true nature. The Government's involvement in Flevance's destruction is crucial to the relationship that later develops between Corazon and Law. In short, most of what is claimed to be "not needed because it has no consequences" does in fact have consequences and therefore should be retained in the long summary. This is an episode with a lot of dialogue and a lot of important information that either explains the events of previous episodes or sets up the premise for future ones. The summary is going to be unavoidably long to adequately cover all of it. MizuakiYume (talk) 23:40, July 13, 2015 (UTC) Okay, once again I'm the one who wrote the offending summary here, so let me step in and make something clear. Mega, it seems that you take issue with mentioning a lot of the filler in the episode - Senor Pink talking with Law, the battle between the two pirate gangs, the extended flashbacks to Flevance, etc. - so allow me to explain why I mentioned them to begin with: without them, you may as well put in the long summary from the Chapter 762 page. The episode is literally just the contents of that chapter plus some filler; without mentioning filler, it is, in no figurative terms, roughly as useful to put the long summary that was written for the chapter it covers. THAT'S why it's there, on top of people perhaps wanting to know the details of what filler got added beyond the brief mention in the Anime & Manga Differences section without wanting to look through the episode themselves.--Xilinoc (talk) 00:11, July 14, 2015 (UTC) Xil has a point. People reading an anime summary should expect to read something of the filler bits that are added to the episode. Otherwise, we pretty much rarely cover filler scenes anywhere else. Also, things like "Law's stomach growls" don't strike me as particularly necessary. Other parts about character traits, unless directly related to the episode's plot, I would leave it to the character page and out of the summary. Also if displaying character traits is why stuff like that is left in, that's a poor way of explaining it. If you say things like "Buffalo shouted at Law" or something, the reader must still take the extra step and think in order to discover that you meant Buffalo did not like him. You're hiding behind an extra layer of thought, which is not our job as an encyclopedia: We are supposed to say everything in the clearest way possible. 02:59, July 14, 2015 (UTC) I still think that this is not how you write a summary. You are describing what you see on the screen rather then telling what's happening. If I was still in school and showed something like this as the episode summary I would got not more then 2/10 because it defies the purpose of the summary and it's heavy to read. It's literally the narrated version of the screenplay. You still judge the summary based on how long it is, like "long = good" / "short = bad". And to be clear, I'm not saying that the summary has to be short or that a short summary is good, I'm saying that a good summary is one that doesn't waste my time and tells me what's happening that I care. If you are a skilled writer, you can easily write a summary twice as long without even saying what is happening, this to further stress that the length is secondary. By all means I didn't want to offend / be harsh to whoever wrote this or other summaries, mine is simply a critic. Too bad that this writing style has taken over the wiki from some time already, this is definitely NOT how things were written before here (removing this sentence because it troubles ST). "this is definitely NOT how things were written before here." Citation needed. SeaTerror (talk) 17:11, July 16, 2015 (UTC) We never had this discussion before, just saying. Burden of proof is on you. I have never heard anybody say this ever. SeaTerror (talk) 18:34, July 16, 2015 (UTC) Cherry-pick a sentence, demands evidences, do not address any other things that was said, then dismiss everything. Classic ST. If you want your evidence, go look for it yourself, I'm sure other have understood what I meant. And if you don't want, it's fine either, because that wasn't my point at all, in fact you are free to ignore that sentence. So I have to look something up when you were the one who made the claim. Learn what the burden of proof is. A summary is supposed to be as descriptive as possible. We don't even add everything that was in the episode anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 00:09, July 17, 2015 (UTC) :You want a citation for that? Xilinoc didn't write all of our summaries. No offense to him, but his style is new and is in fact different from how these were written before. Whether that's good or bad, it's still different. Now can you actually address the CONTENT of this? 02:55, July 17, 2015 (UTC) That's not proof especially when it can be disproved by Episode 1 and Episode 19. This type of style has been common far before he ever joined. I already addressed it anyway. The most that can be removed is the stomach growling part. SeaTerror (talk) 03:09, July 17, 2015 (UTC) Reminder if you didn't read my first post: Keep this discussion focused on the content of this page. Larger discussions about summaries in general should not take place on a talk page, and will also get us nowhere. I might have to start removing posts that are not related to specific page content. Also, if you didn't read my first post here, please read it before joining the discussion. 03:11, July 17, 2015 (UTC) Of the list of examples that Mega copy-pasted from the summary, I would agree to removing the sections in bold: * "Law sits alone in a trash dump and is told it is time to eat by Buffalo as his stomach growls". * "Seeing Corazon walking along, Law stomps on one of his cigarette butts". Both of these are extremely minor details and contribute little (if anything) to the events of the episode. The rest should stay, for reasons given in my previous post. MizuakiYume (talk) 03:28, July 17, 2015 (UTC) His stomach growling can be the only part of that one being removed. The point of the trash dump is he was in there due to Corazon having thrown him in there earlier. The 2nd can't be removed because it shows Law's hatred towards Corazon. SeaTerror (talk) 03:38, July 17, 2015 (UTC) Edited previous post to clarify. As for the second example, the rest of the sentences goes on to say that Law curses Corazon. That should be enough, we don't need to say he's stomping on cigarettes. MizuakiYume (talk) 03:41, July 17, 2015 (UTC) Cursing wouldn't be enough. You need to describe actual actions in order for there to be a good description. SeaTerror (talk) 03:50, July 17, 2015 (UTC) Actions taken by characters should be noted. We can't just ignore them and claim to give a complete summary of what happens. 11:03, July 17, 2015 (UTC) What the "Meganoide's home" ( = what the hell). Why should I continue this discussion while: * it's the 4th/5th time we do this, each time coming to the same solution (do you want the list of the chapter/episode pages?) * some people continue to ignore it * Leviathan says the same things ways better and he also doesn't get angry with peolpe who would deserve it So why? Please don't make me waste my time. Leviathan's You are describing what you see on the screen rather then telling what's happening. If I was still in school and showed something like this as the episode summary I would got not more then 2/10 because it defies the purpose of the summary and it's heavy to read. It's literally the narrated version of the screenplay. You still judge the summary based on how long it is, like "long = good" / "short = bad" resumes all. People who don't understand this are censored. --Meganoide (talk) 17:08, July 17, 2015 (UTC) I agree that we shouldn't list everything that we see unless it's actually relevant to the plot. But what the characters do is another matter. As I said in 794 talk, the purpose of the long summary is to describe what happens in the episode in detail, which includes actions that are both important and unimportant. 17:13, July 17, 2015 (UTC) And you're wrong. People only want to know important things. It's a summary, not a description. In comparison, you would need 90 minutes to resume a football match. --Meganoide (talk) 17:16, July 17, 2015 (UTC) This is off-topic. We're not discussing the proper way to write summaries here. We gave you the reasons why we think we should keep the disputed sections of the summary. Please provide your reasons for wanting to take them out, for something other than "they're useless." MizuakiYume (talk) 17:18, July 17, 2015 (UTC) Meganoide is banned. While I want to trim these summaries, I do not yet have criteria in my mind for how I want to do it (at least not for episodes), so I'm willing to compromise here and deal with it later. Can we reach a consensus on this? 02:46, July 21, 2015 (UTC) It seems as though most of us are in agreement that Kaido's trimmed version of Xil's summary is sufficient. MizuakiYume (talk) 20:52, July 22, 2015 (UTC)